Buffyverse Mini-Marathon Discussion

[crazydiamondsue]

Old, trusty Joss. We worry that fandom is dying, you give us new wank fodder. But to give that a Xandery, Choices inspired answer - we bohemian, anti-establishment types have always been persecuted.


Just a quick note prior to the discussion - I'm all for diverging opinions. However, wankiness and pot stirring make me throw the heck up. There are people of all 'ships and interests (hopefully) participating in this discussion, so I guess what I'm asking is to not let 'that-character-sucks' or 'Season Seven sucked hard' type angst into the discussion of these episodes. While I'm all for discussion that points out how the events of these episodes affected later characterization or arcs, ad hominem arguments like "You stink if you like Willow" or "Gunn was hella lame, dickface" will get you the stink-eye and possibly the dreaded screening-of-the-comment. That said, discuss away!


What's in the box?
Faith retrieves a box for the Mayor that is essential to his Ascension, but when the gang tries to take it from him, Willow's life is put in jeopardy.*

A few somewhat lengthy discussion topics - feel free to pick and choose or create your own. Apologies now for sounding like a fifth grade history book question and answer session.

I got someone. I got him.
The Mayor and Faith

Faith almost vibrates with eagerness when she's around the Mayor. How do you characterize their relationship? Is it as straight forward as father/daughter? Do you see a parallel, as the Mayor notes in Graduation Day Part One, between their relationship and that of Buffy and Giles?

The Mayor (I'd call him Dick, but that's so familiar!) tells Faith, "If Buffy Summers walked in here and said she wanted to switch to our side, I'd say no thanks, sister, I've got all the Slayer one man could ever need." Faith almost blanches at that, and the Mayor assumes it's over Buffy/Angel issues from Enemies, or that he simply used the 'B' word. Do you believe that's the reason? Or that she wants desperately to take his statement at face value?

Faith can't seem to find enough instances to use the cool double-edged knife the Mayor gives her. After she breezily states that she can cut the cuffs from the Box of Gavrock by cutting off the wrist of the dead courier, she even seems to freak out a vampire. Heh. She appears utterly at ease with her new job as the Mayor's right hand. Is she? When she later confronts Willow and taunts, “Give me the speech again, we’re still your friends, it’s not too late," and Willow immediately rejoins, “It’s way too late,” Faith seems a bit chagrined. How do you feel about this episode's characterization of Faith? Do you see it as a means to push her to the dark side to justify Buffy's actions in Graduation Day, or do you see it as a natural progression after the events of Bad Girls?

Was the Mayor's "bumpy road ahead" speech to Buffy and Angel a distraction, as Buffy later believes, or a knowing assessment of the facts as he saw them? Do you see the Mayor as truly the "happiest Big Bad ever" or do you feel conflicted by the humanity he often projected?

Let's take the fight to him.
What happens when Buffy gets motivated.

Buffy comes thudding down from her shiny new Northwestern acceptance letter to the realization that the Slayer can never leave the place of the evil - in this case, Sunnydale. She reacts by informing Wesley and Giles that she's tired of waiting for the Mayor and wants to get proactive...with pep. We've often seen that Buffy gets her bad-ass on when it gets personal (the murder of students on campus in Prophecy Girl; the murder of Kendra, the injuring of Willow and the kidnapping of Giles in Becoming Part Two; etc.) but in this instance she jumps before Willow becomes a catalyst. How do you see that change throughout the series? Do you think Buffy grows to trust her own power and judgment, or do you see the choices Buffy makes as necessitated by arc (storytelling) issues?

One girl in all the world chosen to blah, blah, blah. Is Buffy a unique slayer? Do her resources such as a family, a devoted watcher and strong group of friends (and supernatural allies/lovers) make her less likely to follow the "I walk alone" and short lifespan of the slayer line?

Let's deal with this rationally.
Willow/Box of Gavrock exchange

Buffy leads into the discussion immediately following the discovery of Willow's abduction by suggesting a trade - Willow for the box. In what I feel is one of the strongest ensemble scenes of the season, the gang + watchers immediately weigh in on that suggestion. Of all the choices in this titular episode, this is certainly the hardest. Exchanging the box for Willow will most definitely bring about the Ascension and, as we later know, at the cost of several lives. Knowing the events will quickly spiral toward those in Graduation Day I & II, do you give any thoughts to the choice Buffy makes - or simply see it as one event bleeding into the next?

Buffy immediately argues for Willow's exchange. Wesley is making the touch choice and stressing the larger picture, and that thousands of lives may depend on the destruction of the box. Angel is mostly silent, since it's Buffy's fight, but appears to be weighing Wesley's "the good of the many outweigh the good of the one" stance. Xander's fully on Team-Buffy ground and seems only concerned about rescuing Willow. Giles appears noncommittal but attempts to find a middle ground between Wesley and Buffy until he eventually capitulates to Buffy's choice. Do you see these reactions as characteristically true? Are there similarities to other episodes where these characters are faced with tough choices?

Oz ends all discussion by tossing the urn across the room. It's a powerful moment and a perfectly silent Oz response to the mega-babble that proceeds it. Knowing that Oz's first concern was going to be Willow (As Willow goes, so goes his nation) do you feel that his action swayed the final decision, or just added emotional omph?

Now we're supposed to decide what we want to do with our lives.
Ensemble Gold

One of the reasons I was glad to see this episode selected (I chose it because I couldn't remember which one it was) was the utilization of the most of the cast. Buffy, Xander and Willow all face the "Is there life after high school?" dilemma. How happy were you that the show gave them three years of high school, rather than a Saved By the Bell high-school-is-hell forever scenario? Okay. Not a real question.

Buffy - Despite foiling the Mayor's plans in Graduation Day, Buffy stands by her decision in Choices to stay in Sunnydale and attend Sunnydale U. I'm not sure I followed her reasoning that getting the jump on the Mayor in this ep would allow her to attend Northwestern, since the Mayor wasn't the evil that was and ever shall be (that's Season 7). It still works, however, for the simple reason that transporting the entire cast to Evanston, IL wouldn't have made a lot of sense. Do you think that Buffy's learning to put the mission before her desire to be "a normal girl?" Willow tells her, "I don't think you do it [fight evil] because you have to." Do you feel that Buffy post Season Three has made her peace with being the slayer (prior, of course, to the events of Season 6's Bargainning)?

Willow - Willow makes the decision to turn down Oxford and the gazillion other colleges that have parted their ivy for her to attend Sunnydale U and fight the good fight. How do you view Willow and Xander's decision post-high school to continue to fight alongside Buffy? Taking the "well, they're the supporting characters, hence they support" out of the equation and looking at them as two normal people, do you see them throwing in with Buffy initially because she was their friend? Or because they couldn't not fight alongside her, knowing what they knew?

Xander - Xander erroneously brags that Willow got into Oxnard, rather than Oxford, and then ends up post-graduation in Oxnard himself. Did you feel that Xander's "On the Road" tangent was in character? (Although how funny was Willow stating in The Freshman that he was going to drive to all 50 states and that she didn't have the heart to point out Hawaii?) Did you agree with the choice to have Xander be the one not on the college - yay! train? Did you find it realistic or wish Xander had been Oz's dorm mate in Season 4?

The Gang - Buffy, Giles, Willow and Xander work together like a well-oiled machine, much to Wesley's annoyance. They initiate the plan to steal the box of Gavrock by finishing each other's sentences and moving toward their chosen assignments with an almost telepathic symmetry. While Wesley and Giles, Buffy, Willow and Angel head to City Hall to get their Mission Impossible on, Xander and Oz stay behind to help perform the Breath of Entropics (nice name) spell. There are wonderful moments in both scenes, such as Wesley instructing the others to synchronize their watches as Buffy and Willow both point out their bare wrists and Oz and Xander studying Willow's spell diagram with Oz noting that the difference between their two stick figures is that his has a little guitar. Do you feel that it was necessary for this to be an ensemble mission? Or does the action seem stronger when it's Buffy mano-a-mano with the Big Bad?

Well, what can I say? I like them sane.
Buffy/Angel

Buffy and Angel begin the episode with a standard throw-down with vamps in the graveyard. In a wonderfully angst-free moment between the two, Buffy notes that they're in a rut - she feels like they do the same thing every night. Angel has a nice line about fire demons in a cave by the beach and then Buffy wonders if they'll be doing the same thing when she's 50 and he's the same age he is now. Oh. Cue the angst. Do you feel that the Mayor's following speech about how they will grow to resent each other due to the immortal/mortal thing has bearing? Setting aside both the Shanshu and the events of I Will Remember You (because they haven't happened yet), would Buffy and Angel have reached the decisions made in The Prom without the mayor's speech? How did you feel about their conflicted yet determinedly-in-denial conversation as they snuggled by the grave?

There are several scenes of Buffy and Angel fighting side by side in this episode. Despite the awesomely angstful Buffy-fights-Angelus arc of Season Two, do you wish we had been given more scenes of the two of them as an ass-kicking duo in leather?

How awesome was Angel's brown/maroon shirt with the white embroidery in the final scenes? (Again, not a real question. Unless you want it to be.)

Why Couldn’t You Be Dealing Drugs Like Normal People?
What does Snyder know?

We know from previous episodes that Snyder fears/is-in-awe-of the Mayor, but how much does he actually know? He seems terrified once he realizes that the Mayor's in on what he believes is Angel and Faith's "Willow for drugs" exchange, but his reaction to the Ascension is one of, "You're on my campus, buddy!" You know, until he gets eaten. So how much Sunnydale denial and how much in-the-pocket-of-evil is Snyder?

In conclusion, some nice moments:

Faith sniffing the knife.

The Mayor losing his shit and hitting the table over losing the Box of Gavrok.

Joyce calling her sister to brag about Buffy getting into Northwestern.

Wesley making that dorky Watcher Boy Scout hand gesture after forbidding Buffy to leave Sunnydale.

Willow's "Buffy was your friend!" showdown with Faith.

Tony Head and/or Alexis Densiof cackling manically as their van races off from City Hall in an attempt to distract the Mayor's vamp henchmen.

Nick Brendon grinning and shaking his head in a, "Sometimes it's good to not be the lead," moment of glee as SMG wriggles with a demon!spider on her back.

*summary from "Bite Me" by Nikki Stafford


Fic, Meta and Other Media for "Choices"
Impossible Mission by elcazavampiros: "Choices" episodic vid
Choices and other Buffyverse icons by mangofandango

I'm off to the dentist - be back 12:30-1:00 p.m. CST with "Underneath" as well as commenty goodness. Please leave links to meta, fic and other media here.

Comments

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

One of my questions was going to be, "And was there ever a cooler character than Oz?" I have the same reaction as yours to Oz. He really added to every scene he was in, and this episode reminded me of why I loved the character so much.

Buffy: Making the open dumpster your cafeteria?
Xander: Go ahead, mock me.
Oz: I think she just did.

Hee! He could say so much with so little. I don't tend to seek him out in fic, either, but there are people (Sal comes to mind) who can write him as I remember him.

That moment with Buffy and Willow as Willow announces her decision to stay in Sunnydale is one of my favorites. Firstly because I loved that they took a moment to have either Willow or Xander announce that they were fighting the good fight of their own choice, and not just because they were in a fight-or-flee situation. Secondly for that wonderful tackle-pounce-roll they do that ends in giggles. Despite the vamps and the angst and the "I'm not your sidekick!" drama still to come, it reminds me that first and foremost they were two girls who happened to be best friends.

I loved the character of Faith. I thought she was a wonderful conception (the whole yin and yang with Buffy) with more of a comic book shadowy-darkness to her than most female genre characters are portrayed.

However, it took fandom pointing out to me that Faith didn't get a lot of guidance, and that no one seemed to understand how desperately she just needed someone to believe in her. I give Wes a big break here, because competing in Giles' literal shadow was his main concern, and he was so very by the book and Faith was so very not. Buffy tries - but I think that Buffy was making so many personal sacrifices at the time that she couldn't reach a common ground with Faith. And once you involve jealousy and insecurity over Angel issues...well.

I like to call it the period at the end of Buffy's declarative sentence. That was beautifully put and exactly as I saw it. He couldn't have done anything else.

And yes, I believe Wesley was right. (I couldn't trade Willow for the world, either, though.) And he'd go one to make hard choices based on an assessment of the facts ("Sleep Tight") before his world faded permanently to shades of grey. The evolution of Wesley is still one of the most brilliant things about the Buffyverse to me.

The improper use of wicca aside - Willow kicks ass in this episode. Both of her spells go exactly as she planned, and she gets the goods in the end. I don't want to bring up latter season angst (at all) but it makes me wonder what she could have become with a little training and guidance.

This ep highlights the strengths (and weaknesses) of most of the characters, though, and I'm very happy it was selected for discussion.

[brandil.livejournal.com]

Buffy was making tons of personal sacrifices, but she also couldn't understand that Faith was stealing her fries because she was HUNGRY, not because she was a bitch. Buffy, being an only child, from a priviledged background, not to mention a teenager wasn't built to look at it any other way.

The same could be said for her trying to make friends with Buffy's mom, Watcher, Friends, etc. That's not to say Buffy HAD to share everything she had with Faith but that someone should have recognized Faith being completely alone in the world wasn't working.

Willow needing training and guidance sounds just like Faith needing training and guidance. I think that whole improper use of magic/addiction arc could have been completely avoided if Willow had had any training as opposed to learning it on her own.

And yes, this episode highlighted all that was great about the Ensemble (especially Oz, woot!) and many of the coulda,woulda,shoulda's that make fic and fandom such an incredible place to be.

[mangofandango.livejournal.com]

Buffy was making tons of personal sacrifices, but she also couldn't understand that Faith was stealing her fries because she was HUNGRY, not because she was a bitch.

That struck me too! Faith is just a little too far outside of Buffy's experience, and possibly any of the gang's experience, for them to really understand that she was *needy* in a literal and an emotional sense. Willow acknowledges her "hard knocks" in this episode as a reason for her "badness", but no one really seemed ready to care for her when they had the chance. And now, as Willow said, it's way too late. Except possibly Buffy, who couldn't really understand because of the privelege and all.

(Not that being poor and emotionally needy makes it okay to become a psychopath to win favor with the local daddy-demon-guy, but yeah.)

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

because she was HUNGRY, not because she was a bitch - Sometimes it's so easy to see the larger goal, and so difficult to see the need right in front of you. If Faith had been held captive by a Slayer-killing demon, Buffy would have been right there. But something as simple as a home-cooked meal...Buffy couldn't deal. That's interesting, and I wonder how much thought the writers put into it. Buffy could feed Spike and/or Angel blood with a slight grimace, but the sight of Faith's lack of means unnerved her.

Thinking back on it, I think a lot of that was intentional on the writers part, because I'm always struck by Buffy's Junior League-esque blue dress coat in "Consequences" and jarringly how out of place she seems in Faith's motel room.

Buffy, being an only child, from a privileged background, not to mention a teenager wasn't built to look at it any other way. True. Xander kept mum about a lot of his familial issues and played off the bargain-basement wear with flair. Faith was as foreign and excitingly dangerous to them as any demon, even prior to going to the bad.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

And yes, I believe Wesley was right.

*nods*

Wesley was absolutely right. It sucks to say, but he was. And I absolutely agree with you about the evolution of his character. I think that's the most interesting and compelling and surprising and brilliant thing Joss ever did.

It interests me that several times the Scoobies are shown actively playing roles in other people's deaths (the gang here with the trade, Xander with his dancing demon spell) and none of them ever have the kind of remorse that Gunn does in "Underneath." Nobody even mentions that Xander is ever upset about the people that died as a result of that spell.

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

As much as it pains my pacifist heart, I can see a bit of "collateral damage" in regard to things such as the Ascension and many of the events of Season 7. They went into the battles, weapons blazing, because they had no other choice, and knowing that they probably weren't going to be able to save everyone.

As far as the Xander musical demon thing goes, I never even thought of that before fandom. OMWF was the ep that made me a Buffy fan, and it was all about the singing, baby. "Come on! Songs, dancing around. What's gonna be wrong with that?"

Joss himself states on the commentary that Xander as the summoner was random, and that it was done in an attempt to insure a happy ending for him and Anya. Xander asks Giles, "Okay, but we're sure that the things are related: the singing and dancing, and burning and dying?" and then is immediately distracted by the Buffy-was-in-hell discussion.

Immediately following OMWF, Xander's swept up in Willow's magic addiction, Buffy's bi-polar disorder and where things are heading with Anya, so there's no time for mention of, "And, oops, I summoned something that made people burn up."

Though we know that Xander didn't do it intentionally (he probably thought he was something something Lorne-like, if he'd known about Lorne) it always bugged me (once it was pointed out) because I think Season 6 Xander is a few bad magic decisions beyond thoughtlessly summoning anything. Why the writers didn't address it better (or had Sweet be a manifestation of the fact that the Scoobies weren't saying what was on their minds) is beyond my understanding.

But speaking personally for me, I would have had it be anyone other than Xander. But then, the Powers that Be used the AtS crew to bring about Jasmine the sexy people-eater, and I never got that, either...

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I would have had it be anyone other than Xander.

*nods*

I always thought it was super sloppy writing that Xander was the Summoner. Seems really out of character for him. I always wanked it my mind that Dawn really did it and he's covering for her (although there's zero evidence for that LOL)