Buffyverse Mini-Marathon Discussion

[crazydiamondsue]

Old, trusty Joss. We worry that fandom is dying, you give us new wank fodder. But to give that a Xandery, Choices inspired answer - we bohemian, anti-establishment types have always been persecuted.


Just a quick note prior to the discussion - I'm all for diverging opinions. However, wankiness and pot stirring make me throw the heck up. There are people of all 'ships and interests (hopefully) participating in this discussion, so I guess what I'm asking is to not let 'that-character-sucks' or 'Season Seven sucked hard' type angst into the discussion of these episodes. While I'm all for discussion that points out how the events of these episodes affected later characterization or arcs, ad hominem arguments like "You stink if you like Willow" or "Gunn was hella lame, dickface" will get you the stink-eye and possibly the dreaded screening-of-the-comment. That said, discuss away!


What's in the box?
Faith retrieves a box for the Mayor that is essential to his Ascension, but when the gang tries to take it from him, Willow's life is put in jeopardy.*

A few somewhat lengthy discussion topics - feel free to pick and choose or create your own. Apologies now for sounding like a fifth grade history book question and answer session.

I got someone. I got him.
The Mayor and Faith

Faith almost vibrates with eagerness when she's around the Mayor. How do you characterize their relationship? Is it as straight forward as father/daughter? Do you see a parallel, as the Mayor notes in Graduation Day Part One, between their relationship and that of Buffy and Giles?

The Mayor (I'd call him Dick, but that's so familiar!) tells Faith, "If Buffy Summers walked in here and said she wanted to switch to our side, I'd say no thanks, sister, I've got all the Slayer one man could ever need." Faith almost blanches at that, and the Mayor assumes it's over Buffy/Angel issues from Enemies, or that he simply used the 'B' word. Do you believe that's the reason? Or that she wants desperately to take his statement at face value?

Faith can't seem to find enough instances to use the cool double-edged knife the Mayor gives her. After she breezily states that she can cut the cuffs from the Box of Gavrock by cutting off the wrist of the dead courier, she even seems to freak out a vampire. Heh. She appears utterly at ease with her new job as the Mayor's right hand. Is she? When she later confronts Willow and taunts, “Give me the speech again, we’re still your friends, it’s not too late," and Willow immediately rejoins, “It’s way too late,” Faith seems a bit chagrined. How do you feel about this episode's characterization of Faith? Do you see it as a means to push her to the dark side to justify Buffy's actions in Graduation Day, or do you see it as a natural progression after the events of Bad Girls?

Was the Mayor's "bumpy road ahead" speech to Buffy and Angel a distraction, as Buffy later believes, or a knowing assessment of the facts as he saw them? Do you see the Mayor as truly the "happiest Big Bad ever" or do you feel conflicted by the humanity he often projected?

Let's take the fight to him.
What happens when Buffy gets motivated.

Buffy comes thudding down from her shiny new Northwestern acceptance letter to the realization that the Slayer can never leave the place of the evil - in this case, Sunnydale. She reacts by informing Wesley and Giles that she's tired of waiting for the Mayor and wants to get proactive...with pep. We've often seen that Buffy gets her bad-ass on when it gets personal (the murder of students on campus in Prophecy Girl; the murder of Kendra, the injuring of Willow and the kidnapping of Giles in Becoming Part Two; etc.) but in this instance she jumps before Willow becomes a catalyst. How do you see that change throughout the series? Do you think Buffy grows to trust her own power and judgment, or do you see the choices Buffy makes as necessitated by arc (storytelling) issues?

One girl in all the world chosen to blah, blah, blah. Is Buffy a unique slayer? Do her resources such as a family, a devoted watcher and strong group of friends (and supernatural allies/lovers) make her less likely to follow the "I walk alone" and short lifespan of the slayer line?

Let's deal with this rationally.
Willow/Box of Gavrock exchange

Buffy leads into the discussion immediately following the discovery of Willow's abduction by suggesting a trade - Willow for the box. In what I feel is one of the strongest ensemble scenes of the season, the gang + watchers immediately weigh in on that suggestion. Of all the choices in this titular episode, this is certainly the hardest. Exchanging the box for Willow will most definitely bring about the Ascension and, as we later know, at the cost of several lives. Knowing the events will quickly spiral toward those in Graduation Day I & II, do you give any thoughts to the choice Buffy makes - or simply see it as one event bleeding into the next?

Buffy immediately argues for Willow's exchange. Wesley is making the touch choice and stressing the larger picture, and that thousands of lives may depend on the destruction of the box. Angel is mostly silent, since it's Buffy's fight, but appears to be weighing Wesley's "the good of the many outweigh the good of the one" stance. Xander's fully on Team-Buffy ground and seems only concerned about rescuing Willow. Giles appears noncommittal but attempts to find a middle ground between Wesley and Buffy until he eventually capitulates to Buffy's choice. Do you see these reactions as characteristically true? Are there similarities to other episodes where these characters are faced with tough choices?

Oz ends all discussion by tossing the urn across the room. It's a powerful moment and a perfectly silent Oz response to the mega-babble that proceeds it. Knowing that Oz's first concern was going to be Willow (As Willow goes, so goes his nation) do you feel that his action swayed the final decision, or just added emotional omph?

Now we're supposed to decide what we want to do with our lives.
Ensemble Gold

One of the reasons I was glad to see this episode selected (I chose it because I couldn't remember which one it was) was the utilization of the most of the cast. Buffy, Xander and Willow all face the "Is there life after high school?" dilemma. How happy were you that the show gave them three years of high school, rather than a Saved By the Bell high-school-is-hell forever scenario? Okay. Not a real question.

Buffy - Despite foiling the Mayor's plans in Graduation Day, Buffy stands by her decision in Choices to stay in Sunnydale and attend Sunnydale U. I'm not sure I followed her reasoning that getting the jump on the Mayor in this ep would allow her to attend Northwestern, since the Mayor wasn't the evil that was and ever shall be (that's Season 7). It still works, however, for the simple reason that transporting the entire cast to Evanston, IL wouldn't have made a lot of sense. Do you think that Buffy's learning to put the mission before her desire to be "a normal girl?" Willow tells her, "I don't think you do it [fight evil] because you have to." Do you feel that Buffy post Season Three has made her peace with being the slayer (prior, of course, to the events of Season 6's Bargainning)?

Willow - Willow makes the decision to turn down Oxford and the gazillion other colleges that have parted their ivy for her to attend Sunnydale U and fight the good fight. How do you view Willow and Xander's decision post-high school to continue to fight alongside Buffy? Taking the "well, they're the supporting characters, hence they support" out of the equation and looking at them as two normal people, do you see them throwing in with Buffy initially because she was their friend? Or because they couldn't not fight alongside her, knowing what they knew?

Xander - Xander erroneously brags that Willow got into Oxnard, rather than Oxford, and then ends up post-graduation in Oxnard himself. Did you feel that Xander's "On the Road" tangent was in character? (Although how funny was Willow stating in The Freshman that he was going to drive to all 50 states and that she didn't have the heart to point out Hawaii?) Did you agree with the choice to have Xander be the one not on the college - yay! train? Did you find it realistic or wish Xander had been Oz's dorm mate in Season 4?

The Gang - Buffy, Giles, Willow and Xander work together like a well-oiled machine, much to Wesley's annoyance. They initiate the plan to steal the box of Gavrock by finishing each other's sentences and moving toward their chosen assignments with an almost telepathic symmetry. While Wesley and Giles, Buffy, Willow and Angel head to City Hall to get their Mission Impossible on, Xander and Oz stay behind to help perform the Breath of Entropics (nice name) spell. There are wonderful moments in both scenes, such as Wesley instructing the others to synchronize their watches as Buffy and Willow both point out their bare wrists and Oz and Xander studying Willow's spell diagram with Oz noting that the difference between their two stick figures is that his has a little guitar. Do you feel that it was necessary for this to be an ensemble mission? Or does the action seem stronger when it's Buffy mano-a-mano with the Big Bad?

Well, what can I say? I like them sane.
Buffy/Angel

Buffy and Angel begin the episode with a standard throw-down with vamps in the graveyard. In a wonderfully angst-free moment between the two, Buffy notes that they're in a rut - she feels like they do the same thing every night. Angel has a nice line about fire demons in a cave by the beach and then Buffy wonders if they'll be doing the same thing when she's 50 and he's the same age he is now. Oh. Cue the angst. Do you feel that the Mayor's following speech about how they will grow to resent each other due to the immortal/mortal thing has bearing? Setting aside both the Shanshu and the events of I Will Remember You (because they haven't happened yet), would Buffy and Angel have reached the decisions made in The Prom without the mayor's speech? How did you feel about their conflicted yet determinedly-in-denial conversation as they snuggled by the grave?

There are several scenes of Buffy and Angel fighting side by side in this episode. Despite the awesomely angstful Buffy-fights-Angelus arc of Season Two, do you wish we had been given more scenes of the two of them as an ass-kicking duo in leather?

How awesome was Angel's brown/maroon shirt with the white embroidery in the final scenes? (Again, not a real question. Unless you want it to be.)

Why Couldn’t You Be Dealing Drugs Like Normal People?
What does Snyder know?

We know from previous episodes that Snyder fears/is-in-awe-of the Mayor, but how much does he actually know? He seems terrified once he realizes that the Mayor's in on what he believes is Angel and Faith's "Willow for drugs" exchange, but his reaction to the Ascension is one of, "You're on my campus, buddy!" You know, until he gets eaten. So how much Sunnydale denial and how much in-the-pocket-of-evil is Snyder?

In conclusion, some nice moments:

Faith sniffing the knife.

The Mayor losing his shit and hitting the table over losing the Box of Gavrok.

Joyce calling her sister to brag about Buffy getting into Northwestern.

Wesley making that dorky Watcher Boy Scout hand gesture after forbidding Buffy to leave Sunnydale.

Willow's "Buffy was your friend!" showdown with Faith.

Tony Head and/or Alexis Densiof cackling manically as their van races off from City Hall in an attempt to distract the Mayor's vamp henchmen.

Nick Brendon grinning and shaking his head in a, "Sometimes it's good to not be the lead," moment of glee as SMG wriggles with a demon!spider on her back.

*summary from "Bite Me" by Nikki Stafford


Fic, Meta and Other Media for "Choices"
Impossible Mission by elcazavampiros: "Choices" episodic vid
Choices and other Buffyverse icons by mangofandango

I'm off to the dentist - be back 12:30-1:00 p.m. CST with "Underneath" as well as commenty goodness. Please leave links to meta, fic and other media here.

Comments

[brandil.livejournal.com]

Choices - remind not to try writing linearly ever again I keep going back and forth between paragraphs adding new thoughts and sentences and suddenly my smooth flowing post reads like an acid-flashback

I'm stupidly excited about this. I didn't catch on to Buffy until season 6 so I never got to read fresh, in-depth discussion about the previous seasons.

First: I teared up when Willow told Buffy she was going to stay. I didn't do that any of the other times I saw the episode so I wonder - was it really that emotional of a moment, or am I only that effected in hindsight? Willow does become a badass wicca but at a pretty heavy cost.

I got someone. I got him.
The Mayor and Faith

Cue the handkerchiefs. Faith broke my heart and continued to break my heart the moment she stole Buffy's French fries and crammed them in her mouth faster than she could chew and swallow. How is it that NO ONE saw what a lost, frightened, lonely, little girl in need of adult love and supervision except The Mayor? Angel got it eventually but the others never did. Yeah, Faith carries a chip on her shoulder the size of Mt. Everest and projects a tough-girl image but aren't those things usually hallmarkers of 'at-risk' kids?

One could argue that it wasn't Giles' place - Buffy was his Slayer and later on he didn't work for the Council. Which brings us straight to Wesley.

Oh Wesley. You may have eventually become a smooth operator but one thing about you that never changed was Wesley's "the good of the many outweigh the good of the one" stance. Wesley right. He may have been willing to pay a price no one else was, but he WAS right.

Are there similarities to other episodes where these characters are faced with tough choices?

Please to be seeing The Gift, Giles, Dawn, and Buffy. Also Bargaining Part II with Willow, Xander and Buffy (albeit unwittingly). Not to mention Prophecy Girl "I don't want to die." but goes off anyway to do just that while Giles and Angel watch. Only Xander seems to think she doesn't have to die. I'm sure there are countless others. Poor British guys always having to be the meanie.

Which takes me to Oz

Oh Oz. There was never a moment you were on-screen that I didn't love you more than anyone else. Ever. Which makes me wonder why I can't read fic about you. Or why I don't have any icons devoted to you. My usual answer is Oz is too cool and can not be defined by such paltry things as fic and icons - that's pretty stupid though.

I realize I should be answering some of Sue's discussion questions or something but I'm not. I'm such a rebel.

do you feel that his action swayed the final decision, or just added emotional omph?

I like to call it the period at the end of Buffy's declarative sentence.

Or because they couldn't not fight alongside her, knowing what they knew? This one.

Do you feel that it was necessary for this to be an ensemble mission? Or does the action seem stronger when it's Buffy mano-a-mano with the Big Bad?

In the saving of Willow? It is necessary for the ensemble. General episode to episode, either works.

Was the Mayor's "bumpy road ahead" speech to Buffy and Angel a distraction, as Buffy later believes, or a knowing assessment of the facts as he saw them?

Both. He is evil, and evil almost always tells the truth, except for when it lies.

And I will stop there. Thank you Sue for doing this, it brought Joy to a bad football weekend.

[elcazavampiros.livejournal.com]

How is it that NO ONE saw what a lost, frightened, lonely, little girl in need of adult love and supervision except The Mayor?

She does look so tiny and so young in this episode. She is desperately seeking love and approval and the Mayor is the only one who sees it.

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

One of my questions was going to be, "And was there ever a cooler character than Oz?" I have the same reaction as yours to Oz. He really added to every scene he was in, and this episode reminded me of why I loved the character so much.

Buffy: Making the open dumpster your cafeteria?
Xander: Go ahead, mock me.
Oz: I think she just did.

Hee! He could say so much with so little. I don't tend to seek him out in fic, either, but there are people (Sal comes to mind) who can write him as I remember him.

That moment with Buffy and Willow as Willow announces her decision to stay in Sunnydale is one of my favorites. Firstly because I loved that they took a moment to have either Willow or Xander announce that they were fighting the good fight of their own choice, and not just because they were in a fight-or-flee situation. Secondly for that wonderful tackle-pounce-roll they do that ends in giggles. Despite the vamps and the angst and the "I'm not your sidekick!" drama still to come, it reminds me that first and foremost they were two girls who happened to be best friends.

I loved the character of Faith. I thought she was a wonderful conception (the whole yin and yang with Buffy) with more of a comic book shadowy-darkness to her than most female genre characters are portrayed.

However, it took fandom pointing out to me that Faith didn't get a lot of guidance, and that no one seemed to understand how desperately she just needed someone to believe in her. I give Wes a big break here, because competing in Giles' literal shadow was his main concern, and he was so very by the book and Faith was so very not. Buffy tries - but I think that Buffy was making so many personal sacrifices at the time that she couldn't reach a common ground with Faith. And once you involve jealousy and insecurity over Angel issues...well.

I like to call it the period at the end of Buffy's declarative sentence. That was beautifully put and exactly as I saw it. He couldn't have done anything else.

And yes, I believe Wesley was right. (I couldn't trade Willow for the world, either, though.) And he'd go one to make hard choices based on an assessment of the facts ("Sleep Tight") before his world faded permanently to shades of grey. The evolution of Wesley is still one of the most brilliant things about the Buffyverse to me.

The improper use of wicca aside - Willow kicks ass in this episode. Both of her spells go exactly as she planned, and she gets the goods in the end. I don't want to bring up latter season angst (at all) but it makes me wonder what she could have become with a little training and guidance.

This ep highlights the strengths (and weaknesses) of most of the characters, though, and I'm very happy it was selected for discussion.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

*obligatory shipperliness*

I love the bit where it looks like Faith is throwing a knife at Wesley and it turns out she's killing the thing on the wall behind him, and they have that weird tension/eye contact before she takes off.

I haven't had time to rewatch the episode, so I'm not sure if/when I'll have more to say but this is an awesome post and thanks for doing this!

[brandil.livejournal.com]

Oh! I totally meant to say that Wesley thought Faith was trying to communicate/eyefuck/something right there, because then he was Clueless!Wes.

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

Hah! I'd forgotten about that part. (I was so happy this was the episode selected - I'd forgotten a lot of things about it.) That was a great moment. Those two a wonderful vibe together, whether it was torturous or no.

I love Faith's hesitance to leave as she looks longingly back at her knife. ED did a great job of portraying it as almost a security blanket rather than, "Shiny! Sharp! Mine!"

You are welcome for this rambly post, and feel free to drop back in if other thoughts occur.

[elcazavampiros.livejournal.com]

Did you feel that Xander's "On the Road" tangent was in character?

I think it is totally in character. Since Xander is the character I relate to the most, I can definitely understand why he would want to hit the open road. I can also see why he doesn't end up accomplishing it.

The Mayor losing his shit and hitting the table over losing the Box of Gavrok.

I really like seeing how quickly the Mayor's demeanor can change when he is all emotionally charged.

---

One last point (for now) - Cordy on the defensive at the beginning, when they're discussing their plans. I felt it was a good way to start her no longer rich status. And the fact that the only come back she use when Xander asks about her post-graduation plans was "None of your business" just pains me. Cordy who always had a quick reply, just couldn't find one.

[brandil.livejournal.com]

That was the beginning of Cordy's poor arc, wasn't it? OH Cordy!

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

I loved the "On the Road" bit. I thought that was a nice nod to the hopefulness and invulnerability most of us have/had post high school. He wasn't going to end up sweeping up the pizza parlor, no sir! He was going to be a professional adventurer! (Hee - remember Chane's business cards?) And I loved the thud of realism that he ended up busted flat in Oxnard.

The Mayor was just awesome. He was the one Big Bad who's goals were actually made sense. (And were bullet point on acid-free paper, no doubt.) Those glimpses of him behind the jovial civic servant and the immortal bent on Ascension (the aforementioned scene, his meltdown over Faith in Graduation Day Part Two) were incredibly rich and affecting.

Yes, I agree - the college discussion was the perfect avenue for the slow reveal of Cordy's changed status. Her comment to Buffy "This conversation is reserved for people who actually have a future," is jaw-dropping harsh, considering that it brings up not only lack of collegiate choice but short lifespan. But it's understandable given that Cordy is finally in Buffy's position - she no longer has any choices, either.

The post "Lover's Walk" Xander and Cordy scenes were always painful for me, but you're right - that "None of your business" non-answer shows us just how lost Cordy is at this point. Knowing that she will find herself in the next season (er, on another show) soothes the harsh a bit, though.

[mangofandango.livejournal.com]

Faith

I think Faith's characterization in this episode is spot-on, and a great opportunity to really try and get behind her facade. She's all scary and crazy and everything, but it's because she's that needy little girl who wants the Mayor's love because she's never had that sort of a caring, parental relationship before. She wants to both act crazy and too-far-gone *and* get his approval for doing so, but underneath she maybe doesn't really think she is too far gone until Willow says she is. From there, well, permission to be a complete psychopath is granted, right? She can't go back, so she can only go deeper. She's been building to this point since she killed a man and told Buffy it was no skin off her back - she has to continue to act more and more like the violent, moral-free person she claims to be.It's a natural progression.

Buffy/Angel
Buffy and Angel had the sexy on during this episode, because of the fighting duo in leather thing. The fighting thing sort of equalizes them and puts the relationship on a more...legitimate feeling, I guess you could say, level. She's just as good as he is, possibly better, when it comes to fighting. It makes the age difference seem like less of an issue. When she's reassuring herself that the Mayor doesn't know anything about long-term relationships, *then* she seems like a little girl dating an older man (who's in denial himself, but yeah).

I think this episode is a great one for this discussion because it reflects so many of the themes of the season. Choices, yes. Choices about college, about allegiance, about morality and yeah, the classic "us or the world" thing. Faith's arc, Buffy/Angel, the Scoobies, the Mayor - everyone's storyline is touched on and integral, and that was fun to re-watch.

Icons coming later today, I will leave a link. :)

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

From there, well, permission to be a complete psychopath is granted, right? Excellent point. We don't know how far we've fallen until someone has to look down to see us, right?

Faith's character really added so much to the show - bringing out things in Buffy that Buffy hadn't been forced to feel before (or allowed herself to contemplate); the scene in "Consequences" as Xander attempts to reach out to her because he truly believes they have some sort of connection - showing for the first time that Xander's empathy can extend beyond Willow and Buffy; but my favorite would probably be the depths in Angel that Faith helped to reveal. We'd seen him love Buffy and fight at her side because he was strong, but through Faith we get to see a lot the layers that grew into AtS.

While researching this, I read a lot of what fans considered a gaff - Buffy stating the mayor couldn't understand her relationship with Angel because he'd never experienced anything like that, despite the fact that he'd had a long term relationship with a mortal. I don't see that as Buffy misrepresenting the facts as much as Buffy deliberately misinterpreting the facts. No other love could be like hers, no else could possibly understand. She does seem very young in that scene, and the fact that Angel is enabling her denial just makes The Prom seem that much more inevitable.

I have a love of the B/A, but I do agree with Angel that he needed to give her time to grow and change, despite how unusual her life was and how much strength she already possessed.

This is a pretty strong episode, isn't it? I threads together so many themes and sets the stage for everything to come. It's a pretty fantastic piece of writing, if you ask me, because of how neatly and strongly it ties everything together.

[lynnenne]

The fighting thing sort of equalizes them and puts the relationship on a more...legitimate feeling, I guess you could say, level.

I find just the opposite, actually. The first words out of Buffy's mouth in this episode are, "Sorry, honey!" when she accidentally trips a vamp into Angel. This isn't the kind of dialogue you'd expect in a fight, and I don't think it's done just for the quip value. I think it's there to illustrate that Buffy is worried about Angel. She *is* stronger than him, and a better fighter, and as long as he's fighting at her side, she'll be worried about his safety.

To me this exchange is just one more reason for Angel to be concerned about their future together. She's already had to send him to his death once, and she'll do anything to keep that from happening again. Eventually her concern for him could end up getting her killed. It's just one more reason for him to leave. This is eventually borne out in "I Will Remember You," where he leaves her again (this time for good) because he can't bear the thought of costing Buffy her life. When it comes to the fight, they're still on uneven ground--only this time it's Angel who is at a disadvantage.

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

Would you believe, I watched this on a plane back to the UK from The Gambia?
Plus "Dead End" from AtS.
How much did I squee?
A lot.

I really wish we'd seen a lot more of the vamp that Faith freaks out. He looked like the kind of vamp you could have a beer with and complain about the Boss!

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's the awesome! The coolest thing I've ever seen on an airplane was "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum," and your BtVS/AtS double feature beats that by a mile. I'd have squee'd with you.

I don't know who that vamp-actor was, but he had a certain naive charm, didn't he? He did much more with the henchman role than stand there and look like his prosthetic teeth were ouchy.

[mangofandango.livejournal.com]

Icons up! Over here:

http://community.livejournal.com/mango_icons/13081.html#cutid1

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much! Those are wonderful!!!

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten how much I loved this episode until you started this marathon! ITA with what other people have said about Faith: watching this ep again makes it perfectly clear that her big bad persona is really just an act. She's terribly lonely and isolated, and the Mayor is the only one who sees that and gives her the love and attention she so desparately craves. Of course, it's EVIL love and attention, but "weird love is better than no love", right? And yes, Buffy is only 17 and so wrapped up in her own stuff that she sees Faith as a threat, trying to take what's "hers". Buffy was always the classic only child who didn't share well, Wesley was totally insecure in his position and had his own issues, but I wish Giles had been able to see Faith's needs. Yeah, he was never her Watcher, he'd been replaced, he had issues with the Council, but I think his support could have made a difference.

And I had the same reaction rewatching that I did the first time: I wanted to smack Willow on the back of her head and say "Get out of there! Take the books with you if you want, but get out!" when she sat down to look through the books of Ascention.

Oz was perfect. He really adds so much to any scene he is in. I think the problem with writing Oz, is that it's not his dialogue, it's his delivery and how he can say so much with silence and just a look. that's the problem I have with Oz fic.

And I loved the "Mission Impossible" vid Caza made.

I might be back later . . .

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

It's so strange that I never had those thoughts about Faith while watching the series initially - I just thought she kicked ass, I loved her relationship with the Mayor, and every time she and Buffy had to face each other down.

Viewing her as an actual person with needs, however, changes that. I understood Buffy's hesitation to include Faith ("Amends" for example) due to the reasons you suggested, not to mention that Buffy immediately bristled when faced with a differing opinions.

Hah! I love that Faith calls Willow on that too - that instead of cutting and running, she took time to Nancy Drew.

Yes to everything you said about Oz. I've read fic that truly gets him and I can hear the (spare) words on the page as if he were there, but he's truly a character difficult to capture in prose.

Oh, yay to "Mission Impossible"! I really liked it, but I think he's out done himself with "Leave it to Lindsey." Undercutting the action scenes and the Gunn scenes with "The Toy Parade" really added punch, and I think the editing was superb.

Thanks for dropping in!

Good Discussion - Dives In...

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

The Willow Exchange --

It's interesting that you pointed out Angel's behavior. I forgot that he's in the scene. It's a challenging question. We'll never really know if the mayor could have found another way around that ritual or if he would have stayed a powerful, dangerous mortal anyway. What stands out to me is that they don't just go against the utilitarian argument - it's violently rejected. Almost out of hand.

The characters, I feel, are very well represented here - Giles and Angel defer to Buffy. Xander reacts emotionally - to save those he loves and punish those he hates will most always trumps any consideration of pragmatism. And Wesley stands for the choice that is most emotionally difficult. (Upon further review, it eventually seems to me that for Wesley, choosing the emotionally difficult option also trumps pragmatic considerations. But I didn't really know him that well then.)

Do you think that Buffy's learning to put the mission before her desire to be "a normal girl?" Willow tells her, "I don't think you do it [fight evil] because you have to." Do you feel that Buffy post Season Three has made her peace with being the slayer

Yes and no - this, S4 and some moments of very early S5 are about as much at peace with it as she can be. There is a line between accepting/embracing a duty that is larger than yourself as a positive step - growing up and maturing -- and between giving up on your dreams. Which, she's been slowly doing. Cordelia's barb is cruel, but Buffy is someone who really doesn't have much of a future (can she honestly envision herself as alive in five years?) and that wears on someone. Northwestern represents a hope for her own future, and giving that up is realistic and mature, but I think it's also symbolic of the sorts of things that bring a person closer and closer to death.

Do you feel that the Mayor's following speech about how they will grow to resent each other due to the immortal/mortal thing has bearing?

Absolutely. Immortal/Mortal pairings tend to not work out very well, because of the tension between Stasis/Growth. It'd be one thing if this were a fling - if they were just looking to have fun with what time they had. But that's not what either of them expected or wanted out of the relationship. Ultimately, I think the split would have been inevitable and for the best... I do think they both got a lot of positive things out of the relationship with each other that a breakup shouldn't necessarily have precluded, and if a state change occurred (I think the 'happiness clause' pretty much makes Angel unsuitable in any romantic relationship with long-term aspirations) they could certainly come back in the future and give it a second shot.

But I wouldn't have given them a bright future. And I like this pairing.

Re: Good Discussion - Dives In...

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

I forgot Angel was in that scene, too. In fact, the first time I watched Choices, I had already seen Graduation Day and new how things worked out, so I really didn't give much thought to the particulars of that little Sophie's Choice moment.

Re-watching it for this, I took time to really consider the choice and its ramifications, as well as the reactions and opinions of the characters. I found Angel and Wesley particularly interesting here, knowing the characters they'd grow into on AtS. Angel rarely had a meaningful conversation with anyone on BtVS beyond Buffy, Giles and Faith, and watching here in the group dynamic was interesting.

Faced with a similar choice ("Hole in the World") Angel the tough emotional choice - the world vs. Fred. However, he knew exactly what would happen in that instance, because Drogyn laid it out in vivid, airborne terms. Buffy doesn't yet know that much about the Ascension, and what it will entail. But it's interesting to speculate what Angel's choice would have been if he'd been in the driver's seat.

To be honest, I viewed BtVS Wesley as pretty much the comic relief. I didn't give a lot of thought to his opinions, and typically just waited to watch Giles and Buffy snicker at him as if he were the old maid schoolmarm. Watching it now, I saw similarities to his actions in Sleep Tight, that he will make the tough emotional decision in light of what he views as the greater good.

I agree that early Season 5 begins the Buffy that's becoming the fully integrated Slayer. She still needs her friends and she will be guided by her feelings for Joyce and Dawn (as well as Angel, Spike or Riley, season depending) but she's realized that it's more than just a fear-inducing title.

Ultimately, I think the split would have been inevitable and for the best. I can see that - and as much as I enjoy Buffy/Angel as a couple (plain and simple, I just like the two heroes thing) that whole immortal/mortal thing has that basic pitfall that goes beyond who's calling the shots or who may or may not be evil at any given point. One will age and die - the other won't. Factoring in Buffy's limited lifetime expectancy (and even the events of "Chosen" don't necessarily alter that - even if she's not the one in the whole world, if she stays with the gig there's still that chance for something evil to have one good day) adds another layer to it, since Angel will have to deal with her death (again.)

I love the idea of them post Not Fade Away and how they'd interact given the changes they've both experienced in the ensuing years, but I stall on the long term for them for the very reasons the Mayor suggested.

And thanks for diving in!

Re: Good Discussion - Dives In...

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

You know, I really don't think the 'happiness clause' would be an issue for them any longer, post series. Angel is at a very different place than he was in BtVS S2. IMHO, what activated the happiness clause was not simply sex with Buffy, but a combination of a lot of factors including his being included in the Scooby group, Buffy's love and trust - which I see as much more significant than the sex. After all he has gone through, with trying to save Darla, Connor, losing Cordelia (and Doyle and Fred and Wesley) he has completely lost that innocence (and, yes, I believe the title of the episode refers to Angel as much - if not more - than Buffy) that would allow him to be "perfectly" happy. His initial relationship with Buffy came afer hundreds of years of not caring about anyone or anything, so the fact that he could care (and that she reciprocated) hit him like a sledgehammer and led to his feeling perfectly happy. I don't think that's possible for him any more. When he was sired, he basically embarked upon a reeeeeally long period of adolescence; now he's definitely an adult and I think he's lost that adolescent capacity to be perfectly happy or perfectly miserable. There are too many other factors at work in his life now.

Re: Good Discussion - Dives In...

[somercet.livejournal.com]

What stands out to me is that they don't just go against the utilitarian argument - it's violently rejected.

That's more normal than you might think.

During WWII, someone did a survey to see how airmen felt about lightening the structure of the B-17 bomber. The weight saved could have gone to more armor, more defensive guns, more payload (thus fewer repeated missions, thus less exposure to AA and enemy fighters). Almost all were against it. The airmen were willing to trade more active defenses for the passive defense of knowing that the plane would not fall apart on them.

As the B-17's frame, so we too prefer the somewhat passive security of knowing we are loved and wanted by our fellow soldiers/citizens. "No man left behind" is not just a slogan, it is a solemn promise. So, too, was George S. Patton's grim dictum to his staff when 3rd Army stalled, trying to relieve Bastogne in the Battle of the Bulge an expression of this solidarity:

Patton: "We're gonna keep fighting. Is that clear?! We're gonna attack all night, we're gonna attack the next morning. If we are not victorious… let no man come back alive."

When three firemen die getting a child out of a burning building, that is this spirit in action. That being said, sometimes it takes a certain amount of training to overcome this; to see that abandoning some casualties now will mean avoiding or saving more in the future. But no one likes it. The military will brag about "no man left behind." No one ever feels like bragging about violating that rule, even if it could be proved that it was the right thing to do.

Sorry I'm late to the game

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Some thoughts about this ep:

1. When Willow opens the Mayor's closet, does anyone else see a big "omg-cool" glow in her eyes at all those magic artifacts? The show builds up to her magical!alcoholic story arc really slowly. As early as the "Ted" episode, we're seeing her want to play around with potentially dangerous stuff because she wants to understand how it works. That intellectual curiosity is what eventually leads to the power that gets her in trouble.

2. I don't know that I buy the whole Xander on the road thing. I mean, I barely buy that Buffy gets into Northwestern. I think *I* would have had trouble getting into Northwestern and much is made of Buffy having school trouble. Not her being stupid, but her having not so stellar grades. I think Xander could certainly have gone to college if Buffy could get into Northwestern. LOL That being said, it is interesting that he's the outsider. I think that made for some good character development. Also, now that Xander has seen the truth of the world, surely he doesn't *want* to go roadtripping it alone so that a vamp can eat him as he sleeps in his car in a campground. I'm not saying that they're afraid to live their lives, but I think Xander would think that too risky. Or maybe just I do. LOL

3. I really don't like this episode very much, which surprises me, because I really like season 3. The Buffy/Angel stuff makes me really uncomfortable in this episode, and I'm not sure why. Most of the time, I can sort of forget that he's way older than her, but in this episode, the age and maturity disparity was so obvious to me as to make me uncomfortable. Which I think was the point. The ep opens with her calling Angel honey, which seems way out of character for her. Something an older, married person would say. And since she's neither, using that term of endearment made her seem a lot younger to me. And then at the very end, when she and Angel are talking, she's saying all those teenagery things and he's agreeing with her, and he's got to know she's wrong. It makes him seem slightly creepy, although I know that was not the intention. (*Caveat: I do love the B/A ship, but I can't just blithely ignore that he's a couple centuries old and macking on a 16 year old. LOL)

Re: Sorry I'm late to the game

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

That intellectual curiosity is what eventually leads to the power that gets her in trouble. See, I had a big love of witch Willow. I thought that the mystical stuff segued nicely from the techno/intellectual curiosity, and I thought they build her gradually into that role as well. I'm one of those who would have bought the whole Season 6 thing if it had been about power and control (which they do mention) rather than addiction.

I gave them a pass on Northwestern, since we knew she'd never get to go, and I think they were trying to lead with her SAT scores being the thing that tipped in her favor. However, I knew people in HS with 4.0 GPAs and high SATs they didn't get into the school of their choice because of the whole "not enough layers" thing (extracurricular, community involvement, school leadership) and Buffy certainly couldn't claim her community outreach, could she? *g*

The Xander thing works for me, because I think it's better than the alternative (he hung around SD all summer doing nothing) and I really liked the broken down in Oxnard thing. Plus, I don't believe that Xander really go into the whole Kerouac thing (or even read the whole book) but just kind of grabbed onto liking the idea. But then, I tend to believe Xander likes the idea of things much better than the reality.

I was surprised by how much I *did* like this episode. I felt the "honey" thing was done in lieu of scenes showing Buffy and Angel reaching a comfort level, although I do like your point that it makes her seem younger, which ties in nicely with that last scene.

I'm someone who NEVER had a problem with the age difference between Buffy/Angel (or Buffy/Spike.) I see the vampires as ageless and perennially the age they were when they were turned (which still makes Angel 26 to Buffy's sixteen) and since Buffy's had such an unusual adolescence, I don't tend to think of her as a teen until she does something particularly teen-like. (Such as the last scene of "Choices.") I know thoughts definitely vary there, but it never even blipped on the jailbait meter to me.

Thank your wonderful reply!

[angelus2hot]

I hope I don't offend anyone with this. These are just my opinions..



Maybe as a multi-shipper(I love Buffy/Angel,Buffy/Riley,Buffy/Spike, etc), I shouldn't but I'm going to jump right into the discussion.

When BtVS first aired I refused to watch it because I felt that it was for teenagers but finally started watching it(because I saw a naked man fall onto the floor..yes I own my slu******) in season 6 and the season 3 reruns. I almost immediately loved the Buffy/Angel ship. Probably because I did come at it from almost the end instead of the beginning. I saw them both as more mature then say in the first season.

I love the whole immortal/mortal thing. It's the reason I started watching the show(DB's naked butt aside)

But in this episode I wanted to smack Angel with something. Anyone watching the episode could tell that he was just..I want to use the words 'humoring her' but I don't think they fit. It was more like he was letting her hold onto the dream just a little longer. Which for me was just a cruel thing for him to do. In the end he still left her. 'For her own good' which IMHO was total (fill in the correct word). I understand the reasoning behind it. I just don't buy it. Sure being the slayer she could die early but the same thing could happen to her without anything supernatural causing it. It's the same thing if you were to look at your husband (boyfriend, girlfriend)and say 'I can't be with you anymore because you might die sooner rather than later' Please.

And now Faith.

I'm probably the only here that didn't see Faith's actions as a cry for help. I saw it as she didn't get her way. She said 'I come to Sunnydale, I kickass better than anyone....' right there she thought she was better than anyone including Buffy and she wanted what Buffy had. Faith was upset not because she killed the assistant Mayor but because Buffy didn't get on board the 'I don't care' train. She finally met someone who would ride that train with her in the Mayor.


I have more but I'll stop there.

except to add: Willow standing up to Faith, when she has no superpowers of any kind, was one of the coolest moments of the episode.